An empowered approach to navigating pregnancy & work

In 2020 - in the early days of COVID - most people found themselves picking up new at-home hobbies: making sourdough bread, painting and cooking fancy foods.

Stephanie Kramer decided to write a book. 

At that time, Stephanie was SVP of Global Marketing at L'Oréal, after rising quickly through the ranks of marketing leadership positions at both Chanel and L’Oreal. She was also a mother of two young boys. 

Inspired by her personal struggles with navigating pregnancy loss, pregnancy, and parental leave in the workplace - she decided she wanted to more thoroughly study this experience.

So she set out to conduct research. 

In the thick of COVID, she interviewed women of all walks of life, and completed four surveys - writing drafts of her book on nights and weekends. 

And then - right before her book was published in 2023 - she got a big promotion to become the CHRO of L'Oréal USA. 

Shortly thereafter, she published her first book: Carry Strong: An Empowered Approach to Navigating Pregnancy and Work. 

In this episode, we dig into the key findings from her book, the challenges and opportunities of pregnancy and parental leave, and strategies for how companies can better support this experience.

This interview is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of career and parenthood, and how organizations can better support working parents.

Allison: Stephanie, thank you so much for joining me here today on The False Tradeoff podcast. 

Stephanie: Thanks for having me, Allison. Always love being with you. 

Allison: Now we know each other very well. We've run in similar circles at different speaking events. And as we were joking before we started filming, I've had the pleasure of discussing your book several times with you.

As have many people in private, because you've come and you've graced us with your presence at several dinners that we've thrown with HR leaders. And we realized this is not fair to the rest of the world to keep this in private. We need to bring you on the podcast so that everyone can hear this because after we've brought you in to speak at these dinners, or I've seen you in other speaking engagements, people rave about your book and the messages you have there.

So we don't have a lot of time. We've got about 20 minutes. And so I'm debating, how do we get as much as possible out of this conversation?

Let's start with a really quick context setting. You're the CHRO of L'Oreal. You weren't at the time when you wrote this book, you were in a senior position in marketing at L'Oreal. Why'd you write this book? You had a big job, two little kids with COVID. What in the world were you thinking?

‍Stephanie: You know, it's, it's a funny, it's not the first time I've heard that question or reflected back on it myself, but you know, for me, I had my own experiences more than 10 years ago, as you just said, behind closed doors, always knew that I wanted to both have a super important to me. And in fact, actually the first part wasn't about having the career that I had a question, if it would be possible.

And in the very first page of the book, all right, you can have it all and not at the same time, not alone. Well, I never questioned the work part because I would just work harder. I would get more education or I would take a career risk. But the mom part actually hit me, um, head on when I was struggling to get pregnant, took quite a lot of time.

In the beginning of the book, you can hear some of my deepest, darkest stories about almost losing my husband and my first anniversary. And I thought, oh my gosh, that's when. I might not be able to be a mom. And that was a really tough piece, but I didn't realize how intrinsic the, the, those two goals were with each other.

And what I really needed is a community of support around me, including at work. So I started with my own experience, but it's one that is, you know, a privilege of you and organization with paid leave with a partner that works. Um, and in fact, with doing that, other people would. Then come into my office, close the door, and we'd have our hushed conversations.

But I knew I needed to talk about it in a bigger way, but I needed to do research. Census validated four quant studies, interviewing more than 200 plus, um, experts within their field, but also that had that duality of having their career and also being their mom, or being on a journey to it. Wanted to bring that to others so that it wasn't just one story or one way I could give support behind a closed door, but in fact could have this type of conversation in front of it.

Allison: You spent a lot of time in the book setting context about why, why is this even a challenge? Why is this a problem? Why is pregnancy in the workplace perceived in society as This really difficult thing. And you know, it's a huge part of the book, that, that discussion around the problem. Um, why did you spend so much time and so many words talking about and sort of bringing the reader into your world to understand the context and why we should all care about this?

Stephanie: Well, it's exactly that. We all should care about this. So, you know, often when I speak to people, I ask the question, I say, how many of you have worked with a pregnant person and if every single hand doesn't go up in the room virtually, then I say, how many of you came from a pregnant person? Because guess what?

You're going to continue to, um, experience pregnancy and work, whether it's for you, for your colleagues, for your teammates, as a leader. And it continues to affect us just like any major work life intersection. I think the one thing that COVID did was turn on the lights on, you know, all of our needs and how we show up every day as our human selves, but also that this is a point of attrition within the pipeline for women.

Similar to how we talk about other parts of work and life later for working women in their careers. But what if it was a point of retention? If this is going to continue to be something that happens, if we're going to continue to grow in our careers, then let's think about it a different way, as a point of retention for organizations and for individuals.

And so for me, it was important to put that on the table, because so many people said, why, how are we still talking about this? And this is what I went through. But guess what? We've also had some pretty big gains in terms of support and flexible work arrangements and different things that we've also started to embrace more, particularly in the U.S. 

But for me, I think it's that pivotal moment where I said, all right, why does it always have to be framed as something to get through when in fact a lot of the women that I spoke with, or female identifying birthing people I spoke with, said actually it was a boost of confidence. And in hindsight, they wished that they would have had that foresight that actually the multi dimensions of their life and career and the intersection of being a working mom has propelled them.

And we never heard those stories. We still were hearing pregnancy is a career killer and it's like, oh my gosh, okay, there's tough stuff. The tough things don't go away, but we can have more supportive communities. We can have more supportive communities, including at our workplaces. We can help to create them and cultivate them.

But also, ultimately, it's also how we have an empowered journey for ourselves. And so that's why I wanted to change the narrative so that it was balanced. Um, not just the, to get through, but also on the other side of that boost of confidence can happen too.

Allison: Can you share a little bit more about the studies that you did? What things were you looking, what questions were you looking to answer when you did those studies?

Stephanie: So I did four different studies, one of 400 women who worked full time while they were pregnant and which a study had not been done specifically with that because I wasn't asking questions about their physical health or their pregnancy in that way but about their [00:06:00] career and actually about that confidence question or what was their feeling about return to work while they were pregnant or when they were pregnant and that was really important because it was about their perspective.

And often what so many people shared was there's their own perception of themselves and then the fear of maybe what others would think. But how did they actually feel that experience for themselves? So that was really important. Then I actually wanted to stretch the timeline. 

So sometimes when we say pregnancy and work, people go to the baby bump or maternity leave. Those are like the two things they think of. But as you have done such a phenomenal job at extending also the return to work or, or not space. I also wanted to extend. But I didn't really extend it the other direction until before trying to conceive before you even think about it with college age men, women and non gender conforming individuals, and I asked them what the perception would be.

And in fact, it was actually much more positive which perhaps was my own biased conditioned response that I was thinking, oh, it's going to be something tough I have to get through.  But it's a very high percentage of those individuals as college age students that said they had thought about becoming a parent and it didn't have an impact on their major.

And in fact, it actually wasn't negative. It was either neutral or positive of all genders, by the way. So that was important because I wanted to extend that timeline. And I think you know we're not so often talking about parenthood in college, like, okay, that's a very specific subset, maybe specific support, but actually it's important.

I remember, no one I think asked, but I remember saying, you know what, I'm going to do chemistry as my major undergrad because I want to be a dermatologist when I go to med school because I want to have office hours because I want to be a mom because I told you that was always like top of mind for me.

That's funny, I didn't, I didn't get there and I'm very grateful for our dermatological partners. Close with that space. But for me, I did, but only because someone asked, so that was important. 

And then the last study that I did was with, um, uh, parents and non parents of all genders, asking them if parents were an asset in the workplace. And the, the answer to the question, I answered, asked a few different questions, but one of the questions that I, I really think is powerful is answering that directly, which men with children are most likely to say that they are. So, you know, maybe there's some learning there of like, okay, if there's, uh, some groups that don't feel that way, but the most likely to say, yes, we need to involve everybody in the table to make sure that we're focusing on this as an opportunity for retention, but also that it's something to celebrate.

And so parents can be an asset in the workplace. There are different timelines and ways to think about it. Uh, but I wanted to have some numbers to also go with the stories that I found were so powerful. I love your focus on perceptions because I think the perception. And the stories we tell ourselves are oftentimes some of the most dangerous things. And I would even say managers and the stories they tell themselves, there's a lot of things that's oftentimes left unsaid in this sort of parenting journey that can become problematic.

Allison: I just want to highlight what you just said. Because I know you've mentioned this to me before, but I, I guess I didn't internalize that that was the number one, you know, when you looked at everyone, men with children had the highest percentage of saying yes, that mothers are an asset in the workplace.Is that what you just said? 

‍Stephanie: You're right. Parents are an asset in workplace. So I think including them.

Allison: Wow. That is fascinating. And so it's men with children. And then who was, what was on the lower end of that? 

Stephanie: On the lower end are women without children. 

Allison: Okay. Wow. Interesting. And what did you do when you, when you first saw those results, what did you think, why, why would that be? Why is there such a disconnect between if, if there is this high perception of. Parents being assets in the workplace. Why do we not necessarily hear that or see that on our day to day? 

‍Stephanie: I think there's still the hindsight that, that bridge to that confidence that in fact you do get that. So you, I think you see yourself as an asset because of what you're able to do and, and continue to grow and what you're learning and developing, et cetera.

And maybe if we're still, and to be fair, the people without children, they don't yet know that added benefit. And if we keep framing it to them, as something they have to get through that we are not going to make better, ultimately, for those that will come after us, that perception stays. 

So for me, there's such an opportunity, you know, it's really like, tide rises, all ships, if we can engage on this topic together. Because, in fact, I hope that people that are right now in that BTTC or trying to conceive, in fact, will see it, actually, as a neutral to a positive to have, uh, to become a parent within the workplace. One thing that's interesting about perception, which I think is really important, is that Um, in the study of the women who worked full time while they were pregnant, one out of two women were, were, would say that, um, trying to conceive, not yet being pregnant at work had an impact on their career.

And that's really important because I think when we talk about the first question that pops to mind, similar to the baby bump or the return to work is, how to tell my boss I'm pregnant? So when you mentioned the managers, we have to remember that as managers, as leaders within organizations, You might not know, you know, just like anything, any major life moment, you might not know what someone is going through.

That retention begins then that relationship, that development of gravitas and of trust begins then for parents too. So trying to conceive somebody could be pregnant at work for five years, not yet have a baby. But that relationship with you as a people manager and what you have behind you, even if you are a working parent, you know, you have to make sure that you're, you're, you have that in the back of your mind, but also you recognize that everyone's experience is unique.

So I think that's just to the point of perception. There's the things you're never going to know. And then there's that change in perception that happens with physical pregnancy, which is something that people still very much feel and we, we know actually does have an impact. 

‍Allison: And I'm going off script here, but I feel like every time I talk to you, I come up with new questions. As you were researching and writing this book, you know, I've heard you mentioned before that, you hesitate to sort of tell people the way to do things because everybody has a different path. Right. But in hindsight, are there certain things that you're like, if I could just tell every manager to do this or every person to do that, like, I know you feel very uncomfortable with that, but I'm going to try and pull some of those things out of you.

Stephanie: Sure. Well, the first to address why I feel uncomfortable about it, I was so thoughtful in the book and I read it multiple times back to myself with different people's, with different readers lenses. I think about being pregnant. How do you support someone who's going through it right now and another person maybe that's in hindsight?

So I took all those different dimensions and one I did not want to put any extra pressure on someone who was struggling going through fertility treatments or had a questioning if they wanted to become a parent by having my super positive tone empowered approach or By reading other people's stories and thinking okay because they did this this way I should so I tried to give a lot Of space to that 

But the principles in the book are in fact, hopeful to guide you in your own thinking. So one, we just talked about it, perspective, which goes with perception and understanding. So I do wish that I would have had some of the knowledge or the facts that I share about, you know, the, the fatherhood. Bonus in the motherhood penalty. Like it makes you feel, um, less alone and makes you feel more rational.

And sometimes why you might feel a certain way or balance, I absolutely believe in trying to find your own balance and that work and life balance, like the seesaw, is not real. I very much would give that advice to someone. It's going to shift. It's going to shift all the time, but you're going to slide between those dimensions or many other ones in your life, instead of trying to strive for impossible balance.

And it very much hit me hard personally with thinking about pregnancy or going through all of the things behind the scenes towards pregnancy. And then the last one that I'll share is the other principle in the book of communication. Those are skills. And I actually do think in the book, and I try to guide this a little bit, both for managers, um, as well as for individuals.

And by the way, I often, with my HR teams, talk about it the same in this book. kind of magic triangle of the HR people, managers and employees. Communication is so key and you and I have talked about it before but someone could be going through the same thing and they could have the same manager and they could approach it in two different ways.

So, you could be going through, uh, fertility treatments, to use the same, same example. And some people could come into that conversation and say, This is, I'm going through fertility treatments every, every morning for the next two weeks. I'm going to have an appointment. This is what I need from you. Here's how I'm going to manage it.

And another person, Could say something like I'm going through something personal. It's not going to affect you right now or our team, but I just want to let you know, cause it could, and I'm going to need your support. And those could be exactly the same experiences and the same manager. And I think that that's really important. The personalization piece with the advice of still having the conversation, still think about what you need in that moment, revisit it.

I wish that I would have taken that advice a bit myself and maybe kept less Alone in my sphere and communicated it a little bit more. Um, but I think that's one thing just to take away from the Advice, but also recognize that it's going to be different for you. And it's going to be different based on who you're having the conversation with too.

Allison: One of the things that you wrote in your book, and I'm going to probably butcher the way that you wrote it, but there was a line in your book that was somebody saying, I was worried about bad intentions hurting me. I wasn't worried about good intentions. Yes. That really struck me because I think that oftentimes everyone involved, whether it's HR or your manager or your coworkers, people in general, [00:16:00] I believe have good intentions.

And so I think what's so interesting when I read your book is it does. allow you to open your perspective and understand what other people are thinking about. And I think if anything, it encourages you not to think of just your own path and your own experience, because yes, I've had three children. I certainly do not know what it is like for everyone else. And I've managed several people, but I haven't managed every situation. So I love that line. 

Okay. I'm going to throw another one that I've never prepped you with another question. If you were to write another book about this, or if you were to go back and revise a chapter, what would you? Add in there that isn't currently in the book that you've, since you wrote it, maybe you learned this or explored the topic a little bit more deeply.

Stephanie: You know, one thing that I was very, um, well, you heard me already say, I was very excited and proud to extend the timeline back. So to have. BTTC, college age women, I did focus groups. We talked about the perception of parenthood could be like, and I really focused on the trying to conceive part, partially, I think, informed by my own experience, but also because we moved into what you hear in the book is, um, it's called the hush, so the secret time, and how that time for some people could be two days.

You could immediately tell your co workers, your friends, your family, I'm pregnant, or for others it can be, uh, you know, many, many, many weeks, could be 30 weeks. Okay, so there's that flexibility of that secret time. That was really important for me and part of the book. The, the last part though was anticipating the return or not, which I wanted to leave open because I thought it was a really important conversation to have and that work could change.

And in fact, when I wrote the book and it, you know, was over the past four years essentially, a lot has changed. So I was trying to encourage new ways of working, et cetera, that we've seen change. But the part that I hear the most from People that they wish they would have now is actually how their identity shifts, maybe six months, 12 months, a bit further down the road.

So it's not about returning to work. And there are so many amazing resources, which you have created with other amazing books created with the fourth trimester. Thank you, Lauren Smith Brody. But there's actually something, which I, I had someone at my house last weekend, and we were talking about the six month to the 18 month year old, almost that one year birthday point.

And I feel like that's something that I, I don't know if it would have been an addendum or a different part, but. Pregnancy or postpartum one year out with a child, how has that affected your change, especially as you think about your career? I think we think so much about the one year in, but the one year out.

So I, I've never, I answered that question before and I really like it, but that's something for me. I really find people often want to talk to me about in hindsight. And now the cool thing is people. that I've read the book while they were pregnant. That's where they are. So I think it's also like new conversations I'm having, but, I don't know, maybe it'll have to be an essay or something quick. We can write it together, Allison. 

Allison: I actually think that that's a great point because I think what I've seen is that when people hit that one year mark postpartum or when the child is a year old, their confidence comes back. And so it's actually kind of, it fits in very perfectly with the rest of the book, which is like, if you knew that you would have that confidence when your child is one, you may have done things differently, or you may have felt better throughout everything that came before that.

Okay. I know we are almost out of time. I have a few, uh, funny questions. Do you force everyone in HR to read your book at L'Oreal? 

Stephanie: No, but if they would like to, I am thrilled to support them in discussing it.

Allison: But in all seriousness, are there certain things that you have changed at L'Oreal as a result of the learnings that you've learned from writing this book?

Stephanie: I think from a policy and support perspective, we have really wonderful plans [00:20:00] in place here. And I'm very proud of that. And I frankly know that I would not have been so, um, excited to share what I was working on personally, what if I didn't have that. And I'm so excited and love every single day, what I do here and my colleagues.

It has though, from the communication standpoint that we were just talking about helped me, I think. To take a different view than an HR view or even an employee view and think about more holistically of how do we, how do we share what resources we have, not just internally, but actually it has encouraged me a lot to share what we do externally and not just like pride, loyalty, et cetera, but more like my HR colleagues said, Hey, how do you approach this?

Would this be something interesting for you? Or we were at an event together and it was like, look, this is something that you may want to consider. And that for me has been the advocacy. Not just on what we do here, but also how can the book, plus an example, living, breathing examples, help companies, different sizes, public versus private sector, which [00:21:00] has been really interesting also to talk about industries and different parts of the country.

And by the way, not to mention, um, that I work for a global organization. So that part for me has been, uh, exciting and rewarding, but we constantly are assessing and connecting with our teammates here, but also outside of it too. 

Allison: Stephanie, thank you so much for your time. We could talk for hours and hours and we have actually in the past, I would fear you from rehashing all of these conversations we've had before. I am so happy that we finally get to send this out into the world. Um, we will link out to your book, Carry Strong: An Empowered Approach to Navigating Pregnancy and Work. Thank you so much for your time today. 

Stephanie: And thank you, Allison, for everything you've created. And I'm so grateful to have been on this podcast with you.

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